The correct vote

Farmer Scott · The correct vote

I would like to thank Council President Cooke for making the right/correct vote on ordinance no. 20-08.
He was to only NO vote on an ordinance that included appropriation of funds.
It is my considered opinion he voted against it because, it did not include everyone: I mean EVERYONE. While, it is also my opinion that he could have voted no on it for any number of reasons.
This ordinance did pass (thankfully) and I hope above all hope that this is a great success since, I would not like the lack of planing in the 11th hour to adversely effect all the fun we/community could be having in the summer of 2009. The park MUST include everyone by then or this idea/plan will be a memory and should be.

I'm Lost · What???

Farmer,

It is safe to assume you are talking about the Movies in the Park? The program that has already be published on the city's website, but almost got cancled last night?

Caryn

That would be one in the same.

Thank You Council Man Cooke.

Guest · Congrats!

Caryn! You finally got logged on! Congrats!!!!

Good the see the avatar again....

Devon Barclay · Movies in the Park

I understand Cooke's reasons for voting against the Movies - nonetheless, I'm glad the events will take place again this year. It's such a great opportunity to get people from the community together, doing something fun. We need more of that here. There are probably a few ways we can reduce City costs for the event over time.

I'd encourage everyone interested in spending a Summer night out to attend, and perhaps call up a friend or two to join them.

I personally don't know anybody who can't make it in front of that screen. If making it across the park is a hassle for some folks, there is dedicated parking on the south side of the park with nicely laid trails leading right up to the Pavilion. You might need to show up early... but then, we've all got our hardships.

Let's bring out friends and make this event get bigger and better each year.

Caryn · EXCUSE ME

Excuse ME Devon,
I will beg to differ with you on the accessibility of our Citizens Park to everyone. I would offer up a guess have never tired to get to the Pavilion to see a program ?
Or, I should say that you have never tried to navigate your way through the bumps, water hazards, and general muck.
If you had to do this with wheels I think you would become frustrated very quickly.
There is NO handicapped parking on the South side of the park* where you can park a van and drop an standard 8 foot ramp onto a level surface.
yes there is a nice path to the pavilion But that's where the fun stops. You CAN NOT watch the *movie, band , puppet show, from the front. If you are able bodied you can walk through the 4X4 terrain. But if you are moving with wheels then you are STUCK watching is from behind. looking at the back of the performance.
So, with that being said
I have issued a challenge to the Administration, Council, staff and citizens to join me in the park on Saturday Sept 6th for what I'm calling "Wheels Through The Park". I will have every form of device that people use to motor through the world.
I want not only people to try and get them selves through the park but to feel how it is to be the one in the chair. The one who is being bounced, bumped and jostled about.
Not when there is a line item in the 2008 budget for park improvements.
one stripped spot does not make Our Citizens Park accessible.

Caryn · blink..yawn..dust off the dirt

Thankee
Its good to be me again. I figured I better use my avatar name so that I can't have words put out under my name that don't come from me.

Grasslands Charlie

We need to look at the purpose of the park. If you look at Walker Branch or any park for that matter, not all sections are wheelchair accessable. There are great expansis of green with hill and berms and all manner of obsticals, yet many areas of parks are accessable.
Citizens park serves several needs. The first being flood plane. The ground is naturally soft. The next is athletic field, flat concrete does not make a good infield or outfield for softball. Then we have a pavillion on the South side whose primary purpose is for picnics and in that capacity is fully accessable. However it is also used for entertainment. Since it is on the South side it makes practical sense to improve the existing handicapped parking on that side of the park. Access to the audience position becomes a bit more complex (and expensive) because that area is right in the main part of the flood plane. So, do we turn the entire area into a concrete plaza? Do we run a walkway from South of the pavilion to a concrete pad down front of the pavillion reserved on the handicapped?
What is the practicle solution? I don't think it has a simple answer but I believe it is addressable. Nastiness and finger pointing are not going to solve the issue.

Caryn

Breath..in..breath ..out...
***just relax***
I'm not pointing fingers *yet*. I'm also not asking for cement slab either. It not just My family that have this problem , Cheryl has for years complained about the parks access , and been put off time and again. Just ask her.

Personal note to Mr Barclay,
Don't assume anything about someone life you know nothing about , because it only makes an-a**-out-of-you.

Mother Hen

Hmmmmmmmm. Sounds like someone has issues. We need a little time out here.

Guest

I'm confused. Are we saying that if EVERYONE (that would include the bed ridden) cannot go to the Movies in the Park, then no one should be allowed to go to the Movies in the Park. Isn't that like saying, if every child cannot participate in Outdoor Lab no child should be allowed to attend Outdoor Lab. This is just crazy people. I mean if EVERYONE can't operate motor vehicles then we need to get rid of automobiles, the list is endless. I can't eat steak with my dentures but ,I don't expect my spouse to not eat steak.

Guest · should of, could of, would of

What we are saying is that Edgewater should have voted for a Town Hall form of government. This representative democracy stuff really sucks. If everyone didn’t get a say in a decision, then the decision must be faulty. Right? Those charged with making things happen are always going to catch the wrath of those who would have done it differently.

We may not have a lot of finesse around here or get things done very quickly, but all in all we have a dang good place to live. I’d like to see us quit being so judgmental and critical of each other. I truly believe that everyone is doing the best they can for all the right reasons.

Caryn

hum...
Nope, All I was doing was trying to get more of the community into the park. Yes, I do have a vested interest in this as I have build my house here. I want there to more opportunities for my child to get out and into his community and not just hang out on the edge. I know I'm not the only parent or family member who has someone who would benefit from better access to the park.

* wanted out of the box thinking can't use it for any other sport * soccer, flag football. So why not take advantage of the space and create a somewhat intimate little amphitheater. oh never mind ?@#? life calls and my ideas will wait

accessibility

Everyone should be able to access our parks. I find it disturbing that the P&R director has not taken care this problem. Council has said at the last two meetings that they thought money was appropriated a year or more ago to take care of the accessibility problem.

Caryn, I understand your frustration and believe since you have pointed this out at council, forward steps will be taken. Will it be an easy fix? Never is, but all things are doable. This cannot be the only park that has had this kind of a problem.

The city and its leaders are listening and I feel confident they will make sure that this problem is rectified in a timely manner. So glad we will have a city manager in the near future so these kinds of issues will not be overlooked. There should be no reason for so many errors being made by the P&R director. Can't help but think she is just too inexperienced and in over her head.

Thank you, Caryn for saving our city $6000, too. That should help pay some part of the costs for access.

Caryn · money is there

I started talking about this issue last year and the Council listened . There is a $50.000.00 line item in the 2008 budget , that the Council put in there last budget cycle , to be use for an accessible path and park improvements. I would call that interest in the project.. For that money that was allocated all that was done was stripes paints on the parking lot and she*P$R director* told me in an e-mail that" I know we talked about it*path, but there doesn't seem to be much interest from the Council, I will try and put it into my 2009 budget" Why, ask for it again? when its already in the budget. I can here the conversation (between the mayor and the director).but,but,but,....I didn't know that money was in the budget. RIGHT!
Yes, I'm frustrated and when you see comments from the Chair of the P&R board make comments like

June Moreno

How dare you make presumptions that members of the P&R Board do not know what it is like to live life on the "edge". That they do not understand the trials and tribulations that life confronts humanity with. I will not go into the details of my decade long losing battle to save my son from the ravages of ALL Lukemia and how it crippled an entire family and left emotional scares that last a lifetime. How dare you presume that I am not compassionate to your situation. I have personally been working on a solution by requesting an engineers report on the ADA accessibility to the park and a viable solution.

Caryn

June I'm sorry that you took those comments that I made as a general comment about the board. That was not my intention. As I stated I was Infuriated by the Chair's comments and they were directed towards him. I'm sorry that you took the invitation as a "slap" it wasn't meant that way. I just want to make sure that my point is taken by the offending party.
Thank you for looking into it. I thought it was being worked on for a year now and I guess "other" things took priority on the Directors agenda. That's why I'm pushing at it so hard I know that the monies are there and nothing has been done. So ,I'm angry as should every tax paying citizen be.

Mother Hen

Perhaphs showing Devon a little understanding would also be appropriate. I bet he would be more than willing to assist anyone into the park to watch the movie. It is all to easy to offend someone in this day and age when that is not your intention. A little understanding all the way around goes a long way towards creating the Edgewater we all know and love.

Rotten Egg

I agree Mother Hen but I also feel that anyone who accepts a position such as Chair of one of Edgewater’s boards and commission must also accept being held to a higher standard. In both their personal and political roles.

I will take Caryn’s point regarding his position on the board. Maybe this is what people are talking about with the new review board? Ethics is subjective and I’m glad I’m not the one who has to decide when someone has crossed the line.

I also whole heartedly agree with you’re suggestion that we try to be a little more kind and understanding with one another.

The Harlander

Ethics has nothing to do with how you feel a public person performs his/her duty. It only deals with illicit fiduciary gain by power of the office a person holds. Principles, are a whole different animal and comes in all colors and stripes. It would be just plain wrong to say a person can't hold office because his/her principles do not align with yours. That is decided at election time.
Personally, I like Devon. He is well intentioned. In time he will mature into a fine civic leader. At least he is trying, I don't see many his age that even care.

Guest

Oh Harlander, sometime you can sound so silly... Ethics has nothing to do with performing one’s duty...it would be wrong to vote (or not vote) for someone based on their principals... Did you really just say this, or do I need to get new glasses?

Excuse me, I got to go look for some glass cleaner...

Your so danged cute...

Farmer Scott · WHOA

Oh, my GOODNESS...and all from one persons opinion. What's the name of the park again? I think maybe some that are replying should go back and re-read my original post. Apparently, there are some access issues that need/should/must be corrected and/or at least, addressed. In addition, somehow the ball is getting dropped here that a handicapped path would only benefit those that use wheel chairs. What about those families that have small children that use strollers, our aging community that use canes and walkers (or just in general) and what about the people that just or recently had hip/leg/ankle/knee surgery? NO, I don't believe that one should cut ones head off just because they have a headache. Those that think that's my idea missed the dart board completely.
Please, cease all personal attacks and remember this would be for ALL of the community.

Farmers Note:
Something about lemons and lemonade. Darnnit.

The Harlander

Point well taken Scott. As a matter of fact Devon had an accident about a year ago which permanently messed up his left leg and it is very difficult for him to move about the East End of the park for the very reasons you stated. Yet he was out there after the July 3rd celebration picking up trash that lessor people left behind. In a very real way Devon is handicapped but you wouldn't know it unless you know him. Now why is that?
Guest of 5:18. Don't paraphrase me. That is not what I said at all. Reread the post. We vote on candidates principals (including appointments) and accept the results or recall. Legally, ethics are exactly what I said they were, illicit fiduciary abuse.

Guest · Not Really on topic?

Harlander, it would be nice to be addressed as Farmer or Mr. Farmer; thank you very much. There's only 2 things that come from WR steers and something else and I don't see any horns. If you or/they haven't heard; I have no horse in this race *yet*. The Farmer, is friends with Devon, Caryn, The Harlander, My current favorite (Mother Hen) and the guests as ball less as they may be. I certainly, didn't think of ethics with the start of this post. (Once again, TOPIC). Harlander, I'd like to say, I look for you for guidance however, that could be problematic (love you man). You fight your own guests. I posted my own opinion, I have NO knowledge of why, the vote was cast as it was? I made up my own decision. That being said, I was there for the discussion and the vote.(???)
I am hoping the this post continues with additonal thoughts that can and could be constuctive. Maybe, our leaders elected or appointed can just Stop, take a step, and LISTEN. Takes 2 mintues and you might gain a friend or neighbor in the process.

Farmers note: I don't like the viciousness of some of the replies. The ongoing debate on the other hand, I'm hoping can get things fixed. If any one thought this post was made to create havoc, they are sadly mistaken.
The Farmer has what he believes to be a good idea for a new post. The Farmer is on his way out of town in the next week and will propose the question, prior to his departure.

Farmer Scott · My post.

Hello EVERYONE,

Yes, this was my post.

Sometimes, the farmer gets side tracked by other well intentioned ideas and other things, friends neighbors and the like. MY BAD.

Ed G Waters

What in the hell are you folks talkin about? I can't make heads or tales from sidewalkes, chemo or wheelchairs. What I wan't to know is what it takes to make all of us happy. I do have an opinion on what should be showen at the movies in the park. Spaghettie Westrens! Clint Eastwood lookin hard with dried lips bakin in the sun stuff. Metal plates under a soft wovine wool serape ,macho gun slinger stuff. Now that is cinematic drama. No Nemo or Johnny Depp prancing pirate garbage but, real nitty gritty cinema like Ragging Bull or Birth of a Nation stuff. Chaplin doing Hitler with a bouncing Earth like Ball or Tweleve Angry Men. The Giant......Now that was a great flick.
I hear that The Dark Knight is a great view. Batman, always a dark promise to a better way, hell yes! We need a Batman festival. Now that would be a damn good cinematic festival. Lydia are you takin notes. You see, you actually have got to plan things at least one year in advance. I'm thinkin Govenor Arnie S. movies like the original Preditor. Meat and potatos celluloud. Weaver in the first Alien, now that is good story telling.
Treasure of the Serria Madre with Bogartte. Oh yeah, greed and self interest to the point of murder. Damn what a lesson for the kids let alone the signifigance of Bambi from Disney or Teenage Werewolf from Universal.
Let's all get together for a fun Night at the Flicks in the Park. The walk home should prove interesting, hell yes.

Caryn · from the beginning

This is NOT an ethics issue and I did not bring that into this thread. I did have issue with the way the Chair phrased his comments and I posted to it. I don't want to go into detail the ones who know me and me family know the life we lead. I too was in a car accident and was left with one leg shorter but I don't think that the issue here* and no that does not make me handicapped*. You don't need to defend anyone Harlander. You don't need to turn this into a ethics issue either.
If there is any finger pointing to be done is should be towards the Director who I have yet to see do anything of real Community value and the Current Mayor and the last Mayor for retaining her.
How can you write up contracts on things that should have a bid process tied to it? How can you flat out lie to the public and still keep your job. Some may think this I whole movie thing was a "witch hunt" but it is not. I was upset for the second year in a row . That movies were to be shown only to the people who are able bodied enough to get into the park. Because the path that SHE *lydia had told me a year ago was in the works. Still was not there the cash is but the path .
So, when I was told of the cost of the movies I said that was nuts. So I called the LOCAL vendor and he told me that it would be no problem to have him do the movies at a much lower cost. In fact he knows our city and has done business here in the past. But ,NO! lets truck equipment all the way form Utah 5 times.* how environmental is that. He told me that he haven't heard from anyone with the City of Edgewater NO ONE. Yes, I stuck my neck on the chopping block and look I saved the city $6000.00. But, still no path and $50,000.00 sitting there waiting?? That's why I'm mad the money is there but *lydia has been to busy doing what? to look into it. SO, I will continue to rant and yell and do anything I can to make noise about this so you better get use to it.

Devin I have asked farmer Scott to give you my # if you want to talk off line .

The Harlander

Caryn
You are absolutely right, you did not bring ethics into the debate, that was someone else. The term ethics was not defined by myself nor even the Charter Commission. It is a term that should be properly applied due to its connotation.
Farmer Scott
I did not mean to offend by referring to you by only your last name. I stand corrected but, please reciprocate by not referring to me as Harlander. Please call me The Harlander or simply The, which is my first name.

Farmer Scott

Wow! Somebody woke up in a cranky mood.

Here, have a few of these first

. Also, remember about typing slow? It really does two things and it leads to a better finished product.

Caryn

You can blame it on that rowdy bunch on the other post keeping me awake, then leaving it such a smelly mess

.
sorry for the typos one should not try to edit before at least the first pot of coffee.

Caryn · FYI

This is the site that the gentleman from the ADA told me to check out.
http://www.ada.gov/smtown.htm#anchor27864
I had made copies last year and gave one to the Director. This is where I'm getting my information the publication and the ADA direct.

Mama Goose

Caryn,
I do understand your frustration regarding park accessibility. It was funded last year and backed by council. I am so sick of talking about inadequate administration that I look like this.

I think that this issue is going to be taken care of now. Sounds like you finally got enough people riled about it to make it happen. Too bad that has to happen to make things happen in this town, but there you are. And good for you!!!
I was wondering if you plan to make this event public - as in calling a news crew to cover it. (That may get things moving.

)
What time is the event?

Devon Barclay · Accessibility

Caryn,

Sorry for the belated reply (and length).

I fully sympathize. I don't want to try and see who-equals-who in this whole conversation, but I want you to know that just yesterday I went to King Soopers (in Edgewater) and the top screw that holds my leg together moved a bit and I fell to the ground in pain. It comes and goes. I don't have $12,000 in surgery bills to fix it, so I live with it.

I spent last Summer teaching homeless kids computer programming in a wheelchair, after a horrible motorcycle accident (precipitating the above) so, in my limited experience, yes, I *DO* get it - at least in part.

I finally lost my job after an old vehicle I had borrowed (from my boss!) caught fire, and, after 20 minutes trying to put it out on crutches, neighbors wouldn't help and I called the EVFD who took care of the mess.

That taught me what it's like to have neighbors that don't care.

The four months where I could barely move, and neighbors mowed my lawn, cooked my meals, dressed my wounds, and handled what happened to my mind, taught me what it's like to have neighbors that DO. You get that respect by caring back.

We haven't spoken in person, but, if you need my help to get your son to an event, I'd be more than pleased to use my two working arms, and my 1.9 working legs, to get him to wherever he needs to be to see a movie in the park, or do whatever else. Just call me. 720-841-8196. As far as I know, that's why we live in a town like this. We're all here for each other. Or oughta be.

That said, Citizen's Park needs to serve EVERYONE - and, just as a citizen, I'd be deeply troubled if the 5,700 residents of our city couldn't play Soccer, Softball, Frisbee, or anything else because a path cut up the park, when there's a perfectly good route to the Pavilion from the South Side. Engineers are checking out if the park is ADA compliant. If it's not, the City will fix it - and I'll help you hold the right feet to the fire.

I'm sorry - some situations are just hard.

Devon

Caryn

quote="Devon Barclay" said, Citizen's Park needs to serve EVERYONE - and, just as a citizen, I'd be deeply troubled if the 5,700 residents of our city couldn't play Soccer, Softball, Frisbee, or anything else because a path cut up the park, when there's a perfectly good route to the Pavilion from the South Side. Engineers are checking out if the park is ADA compliant. If it's not, the City will fix it - and I'll help you hold the right feet to the fire.
[quote"]
Sorry the field is already messed up you can't play any of those things. because of the "stupid" fence that was put up that . cutting off the park for many things.(we have our P$R director to thank for that)* "don't worry the (ballpalyer) will get over it""
I will tell you what our *cough* engineering people have to say ,I have read the ADA guidelines and yes we are compliant ,
but IS THIS ENOUGH! NO! it is not we need to be thinking in the forfront of things to come our population is aging and we have more and more Veteran's and other people who need our help to get them into the community . I think we as a "Small City" need to show these bigger guys how its done.
I have the power of the people behind me.
Being a parent of a severely handicapped child I have fought tooth and nail in the schools to get him the proper education and I will not stop when it comes to community access.
Yes ,to the person who asked does that mean someone who is bed ridden.. not only yes but HELL yes, if the want , and they are able to get to our park then they should be able to participate in any and all the the city has to offer, and not have to sit on the edge and watch.
They are citizens just as you and I are and they deserve all the benefits and opportunities that everyone gets.

Guest

Excellent Excellent Excellent!!!

Times 10 at least.

Guest

It must be remembered that access to one may be considered a barrier to another.

Guest

Caryn

Still in the planning stage but this is what I have so far.
Date: Saturday Sept:6th @ 9:30 am .
Accessibility is not always as obvious as you might think.

http://climb.mountainzone.com/2002/story/weihenmayer/html/photo02.asp
The answer to the question is yes if my son wants to. I think I would find a way to get him to the top of that mountain.

Guest

Was it will power or subsidies that got him there. Was Everest changed to accomodate him and the many other "disabled" people that have reached it's peak. I contend that they enabled themselves to go where few others dare go. They challenged the Mountain, the Mountain didn't challenge them. The summit wasn't given to them, they took it. That I can respect.

JamieMac. · Fighting the path?

EVERYONE in the US is 'accomodated' in one way or another. Just because you may not need accessibility accomodation, doesn't mean that it should not be offered to those who do.
I am getting a real bad feeling about the one poster who seems to be making an issue out of this park path. Why? What is your problem with it?
I am certainly willing to listen to all sides, but it would take a pretty good argument to convince me that this path is not the right thing to do.

Caryn

to Guest smarty pants I don't expect you or anyone to understand unless you have faced challenges in you life. If you have you know exactly what I am talking about. I for one, would find a way to get my child to the top and no, you wouldn't have to put in an escalator . I would carry him on my back if that's what he wanted* thank goodness he hasn't asked for that*.
As a parent I would do anything to make my child's life just a fraction easier, have him enjoy the outdoors, interact with other people, and for just a brief time at least let it feel like a normal kid. To be able to play, swing , or just enjoy a beautiful day in the park. . As I think any parent would. Mine is a fraction harder then a "typical" child. I have spent the last 3 weeks now taxing him around town so the he can enjoy the world around him.
I have had to drive to 120th and Community Center Drive, just so he can enjoy a park. Along with the other 5 parents* 2 from Littleton and 1 from Parker* drove our kids to a place where they can interact with nature and along the way we as parent dropped a big chunk of change in their restaurants and stores. Just think if those 5 families and the other 15 families over this summer had come to Our Citizens Park . How much money do you think they would have spent? They call these places Destination Playgrounds, I wont bore you with all the sites I have gathered just Google Destination Parks or Playgounds and you will see how these parks can bring in people. How they can be accessible but at the same time attractive and fun. Like I said "Accessibility doesn't have to be obvious"

Caryn

http://www.creaturediscomforts.org/play/?v=1

not much has changed here · wtf is going on here?

So I have been ebsent for a long time form this forum- but now "I'm Back". Why so much complaining going on? If you are upset with a director, file a complaint- didn;t we adopt a charter that would hear such complaints? Are we still hiring a manager who could really oversee our city employees and hold them to standards? If there's money in the budget- what is it dedicated to - or is it free reign for any type of improvement? and, by the way, an "improvement" can mean removing a structure (aka fence), in the real estate world. Hardships- you know everyone has them- some more than others, some more acute others more chronic- but is there no tolerance or peace or compassion in this forum STILL?
C'mon people.....wake up and start working together. It is not a town hall democracy here and will never be one. Everyone will not get what they awnt. Learn to work together and compromise! No wonder I left for a long while!

Guest

if you have been gone so long you need to catch up on some reading..read the posts from begining to end.

The correct vote

What???

Congrats!

Movies in the Park

EXCUSE ME

blink..yawn..dust off the dirt

should of, could of, would of

money is there

WHOA

Not Really on topic?

My post.

from the beginning

FYI

Accessibility

Fighting the path?

wtf is going on here?