Recycling: Dr. Feelgood or Mr. Goodbar

The Harlander · Recycling: Dr. Feelgood or Mr. Goodbar

The City Council and Mayor are looking to abandon our current Municipal Refuse Program for a supposedly more efficient and "Green" recycling program offered by a private server. I must admit up-front, I am suspicious of anyone purposing a more "Green" solution to any problem be it energy or trash.

What we have now?
The City Public Works Department picks up your trash for a set quarterly fee within certain guidelines. In reality those guidelines are pretty liberal and some contend subject to abuse. We a have a biannual drop off point for those with vehicles large enough to transport their extraordinary trash to a centrally located dumpster. Do not even think of bringing any toxic waste to said dumpster (old latex paint from your last redecorating fiasco or old car batteries). The cost is somewhere around $30.00 per quarter for this service.

Where does it go?
To a Transfer Station. This is not a Dump like many of us remember. Now, a Transfer Station may separate the recylclables for recycling, or not. Ours does not, they pass it on. Beyond that point, we simply do not know what happens to all that stuff you put out back. I highly suspect it goes to a recycler. I have a friend in the recycling business. He just built a Multi-million dollar plant in Costa Rica. He says there is big bucks to be had in recycling.

The Proposal.
The Company that is courting Council and Mayor wants you to have two containers in the alley. One for “trash” and one for recyclables. These containers will come in a variety of sizes and expenditure depending upon your needs, 32 gallons, 64 gallons and a whopping 92 gallons. If you are not composting yard waste (or can’t) there will be an extra fee for yard bag pickup. If you don’t separate your recyclables then you will be penalized. The trash truck will come weekly and the recyclable will come bi-weekly. Are we forming a larger carbon footprint here or what? Then there is the small matter of whether our alleys are wide enough for the trash truck that we must buy for this private company and whether our overhead utility lines can accommodate this behemoth. It was tried before in a pilot program in the 1990’s and found to be impossible. Not to mention 200% to 300% more expensive than our current program.

Recycling in the past.
We have tried to put up recycling bins in the past. Edgewater Elementary demanded the bins be removed for safeties sake. Why? People were dumping toxic waste there, old furniture, car batteries and yes, half filled paint cans (Our Bad).

What is the answer?
The City Council needs to create a valid Board or Commission to address the issue, certainly not a mere citizens committee. Their meetings should be held at City Hall and not at Starbucks. They need to address the very real issues of refuse and recycling and we must realize we are not paying our way.

What say you?

Farmer Scott · please take it away

I think this is a very good topic: The Harlander.
Frankly, I agree with you that much more studying needs to be done. I certainly am NOT willing to pay anymore for the services I am currently getting. Maybe a board or commission is needed. I
have seen the need/want for recycling which is quite evident at the bins at 20th and Depew, which shows the need and clearly not the answer. However, I will point out that citizens that are concerned seem to take the extra step BY THEMSELVES.
I think recycling is a good thing but, if you should speak against or not feel as passionate as others then some how you are less than a model citizen. What concerns me is I don't want to buy or rent another trash can and pay more. I love our City guys; they have always been curtious and conducted themselves in a very professional manner. I would hate to see (those that feel the same way) go to the open market and now we have dread-lock throughout are alleyways.
I had heard that this is a life style choice??? The last time I checked, whealthy people eat the same box of Cherrios and yes, they do eat Cherrios.
I don't have the answers but, I do believe I have/and am doing my part. Certainly, more than I did at the start of this year.
I can't believe the junkman got dragged into this

.

The Harlander

I do not profess to have the answer Farmer but, you raise some very good points. Anyone else?

The Harlander · An after thought

I honestly believe that recycling is not an issue, we have a very profitable answer to that problem. The real issue is Toxic Waste. From the meds you flush down your toilet to the paint cans you wrap anonymously in black trash bags. Your insecticides, herbicides and common household chemicals. Toxic Waste is the problem, not recycling. What do we do? We need them, we want them but, in the end what do we do with them? I know what I do, will you admit to what you do? So what do we do? Recycle? Recycle poison?
Let's address the real problem in a very real way. That will take some work and a simple citizens committee will only offer a Dr. Feelgood or Mr. Goodbar solution. So how about it Council? Are you willing and able to address the real problem? Toxic Waste!

Guest

A few points to consider.

Skumatz Economic Research is not a citizen’s committee. None of the recommendations have come from an ad hoc group of your neighbors.

http://www.serainc.com/aboutus.htm

Two there is no plan to bring in private haulers. Mike’s guys are still driving the truck and picking up your stuff.

And if you insist on bringing up the past... in the past this community shot down a city manager. Should we consider amending our new charter at the next election to go back to the past? I think not.

JamieMac. · Recycling program

Sorry, Harlander, but on this one I have to say that you are not doing your research. The recycling committee was formed by citizens, yes, but the research and the studies (ad nauseum - again) were done by a professional group that gets nothing if we decide to adopt a recycling plan.
As to the cost, the study took into account a probable price increase in our current services, as there has not been one in well over 7 years.
Is toxic waste a problem? Of course it is. But our continually increasing landfills are also a problem. Why can't we address both issues?
As to the toxic waste; there is a company that picks up paint cans, aerosols, etc. Rooney recycling will send you a special bag, instructions, etc for a pick up for $20. This includes up to 10 gallons of paint and 75 pounds of other stuff that can't go to the landfill or recycle. check out www.rooneyrecycling.com
This service may be necessary once a year for most people. Now, maybe, we can discuss an annual or bi-annual city wide toxic waste pick up. ???
We need to stop hiding our heads in the sand over things that may make us uncomfortable or add a financial burden on us. Edgewater currently has a very liberal trash program. Too liberal for what we face globally. There has to be a point where we stop depleting earths resources and start taking better care of the earth. I think inter-planetary travel is a longer way off than we can afford.
It's easy to say, "No. We are not going to put the burden of recycling on our community." and continue to dump as we have.
It's harder to say "We have to take on this burden to save ourselves from ourselves." and take on the role of taking action on this matter.
No matter what we do, someone is going to be unhappy. But, in the end, we need to do what is right for the long haul.

The Harlander

Your points are well taken Jamie but have we looked at more than one company and one solution to recycling? With todays technology it is sometimes not desireable to seperate recyclables at the home level. Have we looked for alternatives to where our trash goes. There is an article on the back page of todays Rocky Mountain News in regards to metal recycling. People are even stealing scrap metal because it's profitable, very profitable.
I will be the first to admit that our trash fees should increase but not by 200% to 300%. I do not want to take the effort to seperate recyclables at home if in the end they wind up at the same location, mixed together, only to be re-seperated by a more efficent methods.
We need to promote the Rooney Toxic Waste pickup program. I am willing to bet most people in Edgewater are unaware of it, I know I was. Perhaphs the City can network with the Rooney project for a twice yearly mass pickup. That would increase awarness to the toxic waste issue.
I am not convinced that we have found the only let alone best recycling solution at this time.

Caryn

What ever happened to the schools doing the recycling to make money to pay for equipment and trips. I know I paid for a few trips collecting and recycling paper.
What happens to the money that is collected from the things we recycle now? Is that money given back to the city or does the company that picks it up get the cash

???

Sillie · H-man gone

H-dude:

I got one word for you: single stream.

Get with the program, you very sillie.

I think you are playing devil's advocate here, and poorly at that.

The Harlander

I am playing devils advocate and trying to open a debate because questions need to be asked. Questions like Caryns or like mine. How much is this going to cost me? "We haven't had an increase in seven years" is not an answer. Is the pruposed plan doable? There is a history here and we would be foolish to ignor it. A pilot program was tried back in the 90's and it proved to be unfeasable. Why? The width of our alleys and the overhead lines could not accomodate the required vehicle. The question of the extra trip down the alleys every two weeks brings the energy (read fuel) use and carbon footprint question. Is the cost offset, as Caryn asked, by sale of the recyclables. I just don't believe we have answered all of these questions and maybe others.
I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

Guest

I believe those answers and many more were provided in council's packet. It is after all their decision, not ours. It is not reasonable to expect everything that council recieves to be delivered to everyone's door step. have you checked with the clerks office. this report might be public. maybe you could get a copy.

The Harlander

I was at Council when the report was given. I personally asked how much this program was going to cost the user. It was a simple question. How much is a 32 gallon, 64 gallon and 92 gallon container going to cost? There was no clear answer and they were comparing monthly billing to quarterly billing. Then in retrospect I came up with other questions. We have not yet adopted any program, so I believe now is the time to ask those hard questions. I'm sure many of my questions might be misguided, in fact I am sure of it but others are not. Instruct me where I am wrong and answer me where the question has validity.
We have some tough issues to face regarding trash, recyclables and toxic waste. It is not only a Council issue but a community issue. We the citizens are going to pay for it directly through fees and not through our taxes. We should have concerns and questions. Is this program the best fit? I am not totaly convinced that it is. In my opinion the data collection was flawed and biased.

Some ##s

From the SERA’s Powerpoint presentation given at council.

Change in estimated rates from current charges:

(1) 32gallon can would be $12.70/month: Increase of $0.20/month or 2%
(1) 64gallon can would be $22.85/month: Increase of $10.36/month or 83%
(1) 96gallon can would be $33.02/month: Increase of $20.52/month or 164%

49% of Edgewater trash customers are expected to need (1) 32gallon can
28% of us are expected to need a 64gallon can and
13% of us are expected to need a 94gallon can.

Guest

is there an extra charge for the recycle stuff?

Some ##s

No, the recycling can that each of would have is encluded the rates listed above. So is the cost of a new, modern trash truck and the matching cans that everyone will have.

Guest

how much do we have to pay for each can?

for extra trash how much more is that?

will this "new" truck fit down our alleys? some of them are pretty tight as is it now?

Guest

Guest

yes that's the monthly rate charge correct?
how much does it cost at the beginning, or are they just giving them out?

Some ##s

The above rates account for the payment of the cans, truck & ect. over time. There is no one-time up front charge.

Farmer Scott · MY ##'S

I'm sure I do NOT feel as PASSIONATELY on this issue as you do, and I never will...Frankly, I have bigger fish to fry and I am not sorry aboutit. I have gone the extra mile and have done the PC/GREEN thing...I'M done.
Here is my story, please continue to read; if your blood isn't already boiling. I have lived here now for twenty years, I don't remember when the last trash rate hike was? If, I believe what I read it was seven years ago. So, since that time I have paid $280.00 annually for trash charges (period). Based on ##'s if I can cram all my trash into a 32 gallon can I save myself $27.60 annually. OK, its doable but, not practical so, I move to the more economical 64 gallon trash can here, I save $7.80 annually. Frankly, I don't believe my situation was ever taken into consideration when the survey/research was being done. Since, this argument, would actually save ME money. Only, if I were to agree with this whole MOVEMENT. I DO NOT. I feel the people will find ways to do what they feel are right and DO NOT need issues shoved down them because, that's the way of the future and all of the other PC stuff that the Farmer just really doesn't buy into...so be it. There are a couple of things/items that I would like to have addressed if there is anyone left reading? Why, if all the survey's have been in and calculated; why , is it still up and running on the cities webpage, who, won the MP3 player? Are these survey's confidential or are they public record and how many respondent's did we recieve? These are my questions? And as always I'm all ears.

Guest · thank you for the other answers

Farmer Scott · Stupid math

I wanted to correct my figures from my previous post, if I can get it in before the power goes out again. My annual fee for trash is $300.00 annually or $75.00 quarterly. I'm sorry I missed this but, it only strengthens my point. For a 32 gal. can; I would save $47.60 annually and for a 64 gal. can; I will save $26.80. I need to keep looking at this, eventually it will pay me to throw away stuff.

. I haven't but, am planning to check into private enterprise companies??? Think there might be some more savings here???My guess is yes. I just wanted to clear some things, and ask a couple more questions:##'s quoted/said that those figures were for one can...CORRECT? If we also need one for recycling then wouldn't that mean 2 cans; at those rates or at least half again as much?

The Farmer never went all in for that fancy book learnin' stuff. He does have a problem with the whole single stream idea/marketing. Question: DON'T we still have to make two piles. Just checking?

Guest

So then 51% of the citizens can expect an 83% to 164% increase in the cost of trash pickup? That seems like alot to me.

Some ##s

As posted before, the recycling container is included in the per/can charge, just like the cost of the new truck.

When asked at the presentation if the truck would fit the answer was ‘yes’. As an assumption on my part (and yes I know exactly what the word ‘ass-u&me’ spells) the alleys were paved at 9 feet wide. Almost all registered vehicles in the United States are capable of operating in a 9 foot road way. Xcel, Comcast, tree companies and other service vehicles seem to navigate our alleys just fine. Rose Acres of course will have an alley issue. But even if we did decide to buy an oversized truck instead of an appropriate truck we could follow the Rose Acres example and put out stuff on the street like so many other communities do. Don’t forget, we get to pick the truck. I doubt council would decide to buy a truck that doesn’t work. Trash trucks come in a lot of different configurations and sizes.

Someone asked how much the extra bag would cost. I think that is a decision that council still has to make. Some of that decision might depend on how much ‘free’ stuff the community would still be offered along the lines of special pick ups and dumpster days.

Farmer Scott brings up a good point. There is absolutely no reason that one would have to chose Edgewater as their trash hauler. You are more than welcome to contract with someone else. In fact, if I found myself in a situation where Edgewater was charging me as a duplex and I was living as a single family I would have contracted out years ago. Currently many people are contracting their trash pick up simply because private haulers offer recycling pick up. Some of these people may decide to use Edgewater in the future if we can offer a similar service.

Family Man

I agree with the Farmer, I don't like things shoved down my throat. Did anyone else notice that the rates are not proportional? A family with kids is going to be penalized for having a 64 or 92 gallon container. What happens at Christmas of if I decide to by a new TV. Where do I put the trash? I know, I will put it in my neighbors 92 gallon unit.
Farmer get used to power outages, those overhead power lines are coming down. Let's see now, how much is it going to cost me to move my back fence?

**caryn** · forgot to sign in 1st

Guest

So if choose to not have kids it is okay for me to penalized by being forced to cover the cost of trash removal of those who choose to have kids?

Guest

Whats next Bio hazard for the families with babies and for the incontinent. I don't think that's fair at all. It's not a "lifestyle" choice. I did not choose my life it chose me.
We have gone from 4 cans a week to 2 and we recycle. How much more do you want from us?

Some ##s

Here’s the bottom line. Everyone here seem to want to be heard on this issue. Council Chambers is where these decisions are made. The studies have been done, reports have been submitted and decisions are about to be made. If you want to influence the outcome you need to put your facts together and present them to council. Emotional outburst, rhetorical questions and unfounded hypotheticals do nothing. You still have a couple of weeks to research your points. This is Edgewater - one person can make a difference around here.

The Harlander

Hey we have an active debate going on. Lets keep it civil. So was I the only one watching KBDIs "America Freedoom to Facisim" last night?
Family Man. Your only looking at the percentages the larger containers do get a good deal under the program. That doesn't mean I'm convinced though.

Guest

What about those people who will (and you know they will) get the smallest can and when theirs is full they will put in the neighbours bigger one. now is that fair how are you going to police that?
Don't even try and tell me it wont happen. I see it now with the renters who say that they have another service and load up their trash and take it to the closest dumpster.9Usually the recycle ones. Is that FAIR?

Some ##s

And if anyone is wondering....I expect my overall trash cost to go up. But since I find added value in the proposed Pay-As-You-Throw system I am more than willing to pay more. I don’t expect anybody to cover my expenses except myself. If I want more I’m willing to pay more. When it comes to trash/recycling service I want more. (and I want it now)

Guest

Some###
what are you going to do when your can is full of other trash?

Guest

Why?
do we have to pay to recycle?
Who's getting the $$$ for the stuff we are recyceling now?
If they make money off our trash*recycle* I don't want to pay more for them to make money.

Some ##s

Guest

I'm liking this less and less. Let's just up the fee 25% and leave it alone, the current system works.

Guest

[quote="Some ##s"]

Nannyless

Oh great. Government approved trash cans and trash bags bought from the government. Whats next? I have to shop at a government store so I eat government approved food and wear government clothing?
$2.00 for a downsized yard bag of questionable quality? No, thanks!
We should drop the trash program and let everyone get their own service, if the City can no longer afford the program.

Guest

[quote="Anonymous"]

Some ##s

Sorry that last one was me.

By the way I am already paying for other people trash, what is the difference?

Guest

and if that happens every week and you have to use your "pay"bags. You still going to be whistling a happy tune.
What about the "dumpster divers" I see them in the trash. I don't want them wandering my alley looking in my trash. Sorry, I give to the homeless I don't want them in my yard.
I know we need to recycle,I recycle. I tell other to recycle. but shoving this down people throats is not the way to go about it. If you start this people are going to get pissed and switch to other services.
What will happen then if 45% if the city says NO not gonna do it?Then we will have more trash trucks in our alleys and streets
Does the other 65% have rate increase to pick up the cost because there are less clients?
Are these questions you have asked your self?

Some ##s

I had all the same questions. I googled a lot, I read a lot and the EPA provided a lot of information for the asking. After asking myself the hard questions and reasearching available reports and studies I now believe that none of those issues are significant.

Ask yourself, have you really looked into this, are you making all this stuff up? Be honest...

Guest

I'm thinking pay as you go cops and fire protection as well. I get tired of subsidizing all those families with their domestic abuse and out of control teenagers not to mention all the fire calls to the Plaza over burning bacon or low oxygen.

The Harlander

JamieMac.

This happens all the time. People start imagining scenarios before they get all the facts.
Skumatz did a study. Period. They gave us the information to absorb, discuss and possibly use in some way that is beneficial to the greater good.
This is good to ask questions. Write them down and bring them to the workshop (I think in September) when council and citizens talk about it. Bring up your questions and get your answers. If you do not feel like your question was answered, then ask it again.
Please do not get all fired up over some imaginary 'plan'. It isn't a plan yet, and there are all kinds of options available to us.

Guest

Harlander, you said you were at the presentation at council. You should remember then that the winner of the MP3 left a phone number as a contact, and not a name. I don’t remember the number, but the gift was awarded.

Chocolate

How funny. It is okay for Guest to ask if ##s has asked themselves questions, but not okay for ##s to ask Guest the same question.

I’d say it is time to Ice Cream this thread. Stick a fork in it folks, we’re done.

Farmer Scott · please keep typing and talking

Howdy, I feel somewhat obligated to share more thoughts and ideas. I tried to fined the members of the recycling committee off the website??? I think I know a few of them and they are some of my favorite people in this city. If I'm thinking of the right ones, they are passionate and extremely hard working and I only wish them success. They are trying to do what is best and I respect them for that.
Here are a few of my opinions and where they come from: I was at a couple of the Council meetings where the research firm spoke.
Frankly, I was not impressed. I will NOT tell them how they should conduct their business...They are the experts. A comment was made that truely offended me. Please, remember that this is a total stranger, in my eyes. I can't quote it but, it went a little like this: You don't charge enough for your services. Now, if it was said that you SHOULD increase your rates since, you haven't done that for a few years and along with higher fuel prices and inflation overall I could've bought into that hook, line and sinker. Its reasonable and justifiable. But, to come right out and say WE don't pay enough for are trash service....DANG. So, add that to all the additional stuff being propose...truck, trash cans and so on. My feeling was that the research had all ready taken place, it was pre determined. PAY more DO this. Certainly, I couldn't take them seriously...I know what I put in my survey. I didn't like the survey either it was quite lengthy and just how many different ways can one ask the same question.
At this point, this is my biggest fear; I'm NOT so sure everything has been ask and answered adnauseum. I DO NOT want to see this FAIL it would be a very bad thing for this city. My concern is we start to implement this great idea (with all the best intentions) and then there's OH, we didn't think about that.
I think I'm done for now but, have an idea that I will share shortly.

Farmer Scott

Thanks chocolate!!! Ice cream sounds great although I already feel as if I have a head

ache.

The Harlander

OK. I'm ready for a break as well. Make mine Rocky Road.

JamieMac.

First off - it just ain't right to eat ice cream with a fork!!!
Unless it's really, really rocky road, of course.

Second..Farmer Scott, I hope you plan on coming to the workshop on this. It's questions and concerns like yours that need to be asked - and answered.

As you know, I am very much in favor of a recycling program. But I do want it to be something that we can do properly, and not end up with a lot of
"Oh, we didn't think about that"s.

Jamie

PS - Rocky road with peanuts, chocolate, whipped cream and a cherry on top! YUM!

The Harlander

We can ask for no more. Thank you Jamie.

The Harlander

Sunday August 10, 2008 Non Sequitur comic.

http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequit...0/?campid=askfeed&ssns=9&

I am not alone.

The Harlander

Just an errant post. Sorry.

PCI

That's cute and oh so true.

Recycling: Dr. Feelgood or Mr. Goodbar

please take it away

An after thought

Recycling program

H-man gone

MY ##'S

thank you for the other answers

Stupid math

forgot to sign in 1st

please keep typing and talking