Archive for edgewatertalkingstick.myfreeforum.org The talking stick has been used in many cultures to promote discussion and community. It is our hope that citizens will join in and gain a greater sense of community involvement. Note: This is not a government sanctioned forum.
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The Harlander
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Public to be heardAt the top of every Council Agenda can be found the following words:
Notice: City Council packets are prepared several days prior to the meeting. Timely action and short discussion on agenda items does not reflect lack of thought or analysis on the City Council’s part as issues have been discussed by Council in workshop or committee meetings which are also open to the public. Please be advised that City Council meetings are business meetings, and certain items will be addressed and acted upon without any public input. These items have usually been presented at a prior City Council workshop. The proper forum for lengthy comments and discussion with Council members is a workshop, not a City Council meeting.
Then as an Agenda Item are found the following words:
Public Comments (Non-Agenda Items)
With Council no longer holding workshops, the ability of the Public to be heard on timely issues is left to the discretion of the Council President. A Council President who has stated on at least one occasion, that he did not want to hear from the public. To Councils credit they generally do want to hear from the public but they sometimes forget to remind the President to allow it.
This policy obviously needs to be changed. Just my 2˘
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Devon Barclay
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Public adviceSince Council no longer holds workshops, it strikes me that it would be good for their constituents if they created some Boards and Commissions to speak to them (one might use the word 'advise') on the concerns and priorities of the citizens. A place to 'workshop' ideas, on specific topics, so to speak.
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purple cat
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Seems our council only likes to hear themselves- or at least the couple that take up the majority of the time in meetings - to the tune of hours of incessant blabber - rather than doing some real business and geting things accomplished.
It would be great to have a public comment section on anything- including agenda items - at the beginning - especially since the council president doesn't seem to care to hear what the public has to say regarding most agenda items anyway, and the other council members aren't so keen at making this happen. it seems that every meeting i have attended this year, he has made that clear to everyone- that he doesn't care what the public thinks , how they feel, or what they may have to say... 
it is difficult- to say the least- to be heard with any respect in this city.
 bring your megaphones if you're dare brave enough to speak up!
better yet, we can hold a public meeting in the parking lot and talk to each other...at least we can rest assured we'll be heard. and who knows maybe we can catch the mayor on her way out as she leaves council early! 
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JamieMac.
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Sorry you feel that way. I believe that this council has gone out of their way to hear public comment. It is asked on every applicable agenda item. The times that comment has been quelled have been when they were out of order. For instance, comment is not allowed when council is discussing an agenda item. There is a time for council discussion, and a time for public comment. During council comments at the end of the meeting is another time.
Protocol is fairly loose at council, and I, personally, like it that way for the most part. I used to go to council meetings and felt like I was attending the Kings court. I appreciate the levity that goes on occasionally and I also appreciate that citizens are asked for comment at just about every agenda item.
I do know that there have been some instances where the public comment was quashed and it should not have been. I am not saying it has never happened, but I am saying that it is rare. I do think that our council meetings are a lot more open than most citys', and I believe that goes hand in hand with some of the 'looseness' that offends people from time to time. I get that it isn't always proper, but I would rather not go to the far extreme of that and be the Kings court again.
This is my own opinion, and I am quite certain that there will be a lot of you who think I'm not seeing reality, but there it is. My reality may not jive with your reality, and I am happy to discuss it to a point.
Jamie
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Just Saying
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| JamieMac. wrote: | | I do think that our council meetings are a lot more open than most citys', |
Have you actually attended other city’s meetings? Never have I seen council members scold the citizens and the staff the way this council does. Like the guy said, you got to be pretty brave to speak up.
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JamieMac.
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Have you ever been to Wheat Ridge council meetings? They are brutal!
I'm not saying that we don't have a lot of room for improvement. But I am getting a little tired of the complaints showing up here and not at council. If you don't like what is going on, then you have every right to protest. If you like, put it in a letter and I will be happy to read it at council and have it entered into the official records.
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Ron Kelly
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So if my neighbor beats up his wife I can too????Great reasoning... Bad behavior results in worst behavior
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Stickian
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Pick Your Forum | Quote: | | I am getting a little tired of the complaints showing up here and not at council. If you don't like what is going on, then you have every right to protest. If you like, put it in a letter and I will be happy to read it at council and have it entered into the official records. |
While I understand how you might be tired of anonymous posts on the Talking Stick, it's rather shocking to hear, JamieMac, that you would prefer residents not exercise their right of free speech here. After all, the Talking Stick was created to provide residents with somewhere to vent their feelings and offer their ideas without repercussion, because they are guaranteed anonymity. There is nothing magical about making a statement "for the record" at City Council meetings. Council is completely entitled to ignore anything and everything they wish to ignore during public comment.
This is a place where the community can communicate with each other, whether you are in office or not. It is very egalitarian that way. You don't have to ask for permission to speak here.
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Sicka Cookin'
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Jamie Mac - Back up your talk here by Sticking up for the puJamieMac, A lot has been rightly said here about the lack of public input allowed - stated by Harlander on the lack of workshop time where public input is allowed, and by Harlander and purple cat on the council prez's dislike of the public and their comment. I'm with them! If you are interested in hearing the public comment there is a simple thing you can do. You can stand up to the Cookie Monster and put forward an ordinance or change or whatever it would be to allow public comment on agenda items. There was a time when this was the way business was done. Before council went rambling on about subjects that half of them haven't studied - and are poorly prepared for - the public was allowed to speak and to address the issues. It's completely frustrating when you come to council knowing that big things are coming up with little notice and you can only comment on the past - not the present or future! And your council prez is becoming more of a nazi with every meeting. You others on council need to talk to him in executive session and straighten him out. At least you'd do some public good in executive session.
When you put up a change in the order of business to let the public actually have a voice maybe they will come down to raise their voice. Otherwise the Stick is all they have to actually talk to the issues without being insulted by David Cook and yawned at by the rest of council. So what will it be JamieMac? Are you in? Will you make the motion and stand up for the Stick People?
Here is what the published agenda states -
| Quote: | Notice: City Council packets are prepared several days prior to the meeting. Timely action and short discussion on agenda items does not reflect lack of thought or analysis on the City Council’s part as issues have been discussed by Council in workshop or committee meetings which are also open to the public. Please be advised that City Council meetings are business meetings, and certain items will be addressed and acted upon without any public input. These items have usually been presented at a prior City Council workshop. The proper forum for lengthy comments and discussion with Council members is a workshop, not a City Council meeting.
Public Comment: The public is invited to be heard during the Public Comment portion of the meeting. Public comments will be limited to three minutes each unless prior arrangements have been made with the City Clerk or Council President. City Council may not respond to your comments of this evening, rather they may take your comments and suggestions under advisement and your questions will be directed to the appropriate person or department for follow-up. |
Where are those workshops? When does the public get to comment on real issues? The emperor in chief squashes the public - they aren't lawyers and they ain't no good. JamieMAc, help Edgewater people get their voice back. Allow public comment on agenda items!
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JamieMac.
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I do know a 'little' about why the Stick was started. And what I do know for sure is that it wasn't meant to be strictly a bitch session, where people 'expect' city officials to read their complaints and then act on them, all because they read them on the Stick.
It was meant to allow people to discuss in the hopes that it would encourage citizen participation in the processes of change.
As a council member I can voice my opinion on any number of things, but unless council has a majority concensus or vote, that's all it is. My opinion - on the record.
I do understand how frustrating it is to get up in front of council and pour out your heart and soul only to walk back to your seat feeling like you got absolutely nowhere. But understand that council cannot comment directly on any public comment that is not on the agenda. They can comment during council comments, but they cannot make anything happen then. My point here is that if the citizens feel strongly enough about a situation then they need to get together with other citizens who care about it and make themselves heard. Council is not the be all and end all. Am I advocating grassroots movements? Absolutely. But before you decide to form one, make sure that you know what you want, know what your rights are, and know the reality of what you are asking. Don't go off pissed and half-cocked. That's not the way to make progress.
Get angry. But then channel that anger or passion or fantastic idea into a constructive movement. Use the stick for communication, generating ideas, and working through issues. But don't expect city government to address issues based on what goes on here. And don't expect everyone to agree with you on all your issues.
And, for the record, public IS given time to comment on agenda items during that item. The first public comment is for non-agenda items to allow the public to address things not on the agenda. If there is an item that does not allow public comment before council votes, speak up. It is part of this councils procedure to allow it, and if it is overlooked, then speak up. Don't wait until after the meeting to complain.
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Guest 7
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That is all well and good but that is not what is published at the head of every City Council agenda as mentioned several times before. Those are the rules people are going to play by, not some ambiguous verbal agreement to allow public comment on agenda items. You are not taking into account people who might be showing up to Council for the first time wishing to address a particular issue of concern to them.
As far as the Stick goes, it's just like anything else in life, it has it's bright side and it's darkside. Many good things have occurred because of the Talking Stick and many bad things as well. We all know a bit more about our City Charter because of the Stick and I have witnessed outright character assassination on the Stick.
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Guest 8
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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:33 am Post subject:
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| Quote: | I do know a 'little' about why the Stick was started. And what I do know for sure is that it wasn't meant to be strictly a bitch session, where people 'expect' city officials to read their complaints and then act on them, all because they read them on the Stick.
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And yet the Stick archives are intact and there are many, many posts written to influence public opinion or Council decisions on a number of issues and I would be willing to argue a number of these public debates on the Stick have been successful indeed. Many elected officials have used this forum to influence opinion as well as many private citizens. When did the Talking Stick discussions become "bitching"?
The Talking Stick allows residents to write out their opinions, ideas or concerns, at length, in the privacy and calm of their homes. The Stick allows other residents to challenge their views and they may respond. While, I will be the first to admit the Stick is often less than it could be, the quality of discourse provided here often far exceeds the scope and depth of the constrained public comment afforded our citizens during City Council proceedings. Standing at that ridiculous podium with three minutes to extemporaneously express your views is archaic, often demeaning, and extremely ineffective for the very reasons you point out. It is a one way communication where no response during Council comments is the norm and no follow up action is required at anytime. It is very difficult to present a well thought out position in that environment. Letters to Council, letters that have taken hours to painstakingly write, receive very little response either, in my experience.
In fact, lately Council seems to feel free to criticize citizens who dare speak up during public comment. They are often treated to the condescending tone, the snide remark, or the derogatory label for their efforts.
Obviously, there is no guarantee of any result by City Council merely because residents post their thoughts on the Talking Stick and I don't think anyone harbors that expectation.
City officials don't have any responsibility to read, write or consider anything they find here. They may choose to read and respond if they wish.
This is not public process, this is an Op/Ed column. Your constitutes are talking here but you may choose to ignore them, many city officials do.
More often than not, people turn to the Stick because their city officials have already ignored, avoided or publicly opposed their "complaints", as you call them. Or they are for some reason reluctant to approach their city officials personally or during open meeting. That is entirely their right as well.
Soon City Council meetings will be televised, I have heard. That will add another element of media in this process of local government.
I welcome that. When that occurs we will have to seriously consider other ways for the public to express themselves besides personally attending meetings because many people will be "attending meetings" on television. Real time e-mails during public comment read by the City Clerk, perhaps?
One way might even be to copy and paste something written on the Talking Stick that a resident likes and agrees with (gasp!) and send it to their Council representatives (gasp!) much like people do with newspaper and magazine articles.
On a personal note:
I used to attend City Council but I discovered that if you attend all the time (unless you happen to carry a big stick) your comments no longer count, you are taken for granted. I attend now under duress due to what I consider the lack of respect and verbal abuse citizens have been receiving lately.
Now, as much as any time in my memory the Talking Stick has a legitimate role to play in connecting community.
We will express our opinions here, safely. If we must we will petition Council.
A useful topic of discussion would be, "How to effectively petition City Hall" any takers?
But local change and citizen participation are things that exist outside the walls of City Hall and on occasion, of necessity, inside them.
City Hall is not and never has been the granter of change.
We are.
- and if used effectively, our Talking Stick can encourage citizen participation in the processes of change.
It has proven that many times over.
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Guest
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If the majority of people see the council president as a bully, then he is in fact a bully. It is unfortunate the other members of council support and defend his behavior. Worst yet, they follow his lead.
Guest 8 has said it well. When city hall is under the thumb of a tyrant the real work will be done in the streets.
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Leanna Hale
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Council ReformQuoting Jamie: Protocol is fairly loose at council, and I, personally, like it that way for the most part. I used to go to council meetings and felt like I was attending the Kings court. I appreciate the levity that goes on occasionally and I also appreciate that citizens are asked for comment at just about every agenda item.
I do know that there have been some instances where the public comment was quashed and it should not have been. I am not saying it has never happened, but I am saying that it is rare. I do think that our council meetings are a lot more open than most citys', and I believe that goes hand in hand with some of the 'looseness' that offends people from time to time.
Protocol is worse than "fairly loose". The council has a difficult time following the rules of procedure at all and personally I believe much of this has to do with the poor leadership, and the fact that the rest of council allows it to go on. I would love to see some education on parlimentary procedure for the current council and some willingness to follow it. I did it when I was first elected and it was very helpful, and an ongoing learning process. Don't get me wrong- there is a time and place for some flexibility, but also for following procedure to keep things organized and appropriate.
For instance: Council should not be addressing items that are not on the agenda, unless a vote was taken to amend the agenda, which should happen only in rare circumstances or emergencies.
Council should follow their agenda, and not ask for reports on meetings or issues during agenda setting.
Council members should learn to use a point of order call, when others get out of line.
Council members should never insult the public in these meetings.
The sarcasm and daggers being thrown by Cooke needs to stop.
I have been discouraged too often at the meetings lately, most recently when Councilman Bossert was asked to deliver a report during the agenda setting item during a meeting (first opportunity for a point of order redirect to the council president, secondly when Lydia Anderson yelled out at Councilman Bossert during the report he was not really supposed to be offering at that time (again no one from council called point of order, although I called it from my public chair, sitting directly behind Lydia. At that point I took my own order of leaving the meeting because I found it all too frustrating to try to find much respect for what was occurring. It was the circus that so many people comment on this TS about. This was a sad meeting and the last one I have attended for awhile, especially after seeing the mayor leave early and return to meet with Lydia outside after the meeting. It makes me wonder who is invested in the city and why.
There are a few of the reasons that I have lost respect for what goes on at council meetings and beyond. And let's not forget that David Cooke does shut people down (both on council and in the public forum) an a regular basis. Council needs to stand up and make some improvements, in my humble opinion. Fortunately for me, he doesn't threaten me and I'll say what I have to say. Fortunately for me, I had the experience to sit with some seasoned, respected and respectable council members and mentors when I first got involved. Unfortunately, it seems to have gone downhill over the years, not to say ther are not good council members with good intentions, but it seems they get shut down by the antics, just like the public has.
I have attended other cities' council meetings, county board and professional board meetings. There is a place for order and formality. It fosters respect for each other and for the process. Never have I been in attendance at any other formal meeting that the antics I have witnessed in council chambers in Edgewater been present. To compare it to Wheat Ridge Council- where the claim to fame is that one council member once punched another during a formal meeting is an outdated and poor standard of comparison.
Unfortunately, currently people seem threatened by the invitation to approach council these days. It is a sad situation. One that I hope can change soon. Just my two cents (or two dollars worth).
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A little twisted
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Re: Council Reform | Leanna Hale wrote: | | This was a sad meeting and the last one I have attended for awhile, especially after seeing the mayor leave early and return to meet with Lydia outside after the meeting. |
For the record, the mayor had very good cause to leave when she did. She did not return to meet with Lydia. That was a coincidence that kept her from returning to chambers.
We all have opinions, but be careful what you make up. Especially when the fantasy involves someone else.
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Leanna Hale
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just the facts jackThanks for the advice, but I'm just stating the facts-
With regard to that particular meeting, I left the meeting right before it officially ended, stood outside to gather my own thoughts, and witnessed Lydia leave soon after I did, before anyone else, and the mayor pulled up curbside- they met briefly, talked and both left before anyone else exited. Coincidence? Perhaps it was.
Did the mayor have good reason to leave early? Perhaps. I don't recall any being stated on the recorded, but perhaps she did.
I do know that in my efforts to keep up on the muni govt events, and realizing the conflict between the mayor-council-P/R director and P/R board- well it seems that coincidence would be a "coincidence".
Just stating the facts as I witnessed them. Draw your own conclusions, twisted. I appreciate the transparency to do so. That's all I'm trying to offer here re: this one experience. Hope the rest of the TS readers do as well.
And please don't get me wrong- I do still endlessly hope for improvement and reform in our muni govt. I do still love this silly little town that I call home too! And plan to keep doing what I can to help.
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The Long Memory
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name your pillars | Quote: | | Fortunately for me, I had the experience to sit with some seasoned, respected and respectable council members and mentors when I first got involved. |
and who might these bastions of integrity be, Ms Hale? There are many people here with a long memory. Since you bring it up, I, for one, would appreciate hearing who your mentors were - or are.
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yummy gummy
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Leanna HaleFor someone who has attended very few meetings over the past few years, you sure make a lot of untrue assumptions and assessments.
Not to mention all this from someone who stood up in front of our council and a pretty large group of citizens in flip flops, chewing on a wad of gum to ask for a seat on this council. You know what they say about people living in glass houses, Ms. Hale.
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Guest
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Miss Hale is absolutely correct. If council were to behave a little more appropriately there would be less time wasted on citizens comments at every agenda item, ( I mean, really, what city does that?) and there would be more time wasted on tabling every item until people get so sick of talking about it after one council member (hmmm?) goes on ad nauseum about whatever it is she has on her own personal agenda, that they simply give in.
I for one, tired of Miss Hales over the top haughtiness when she was on council. And who has not heard her try to turn council into her personal attacks on her ex boyfriend by slamming his business or trying to get council to steal the police department property away from him with eminent domain?
I expect she will run for council in November, and unless enough people step up, she will probably get on. There are 5 openings again. This scares me. She is a vindictive, self serving woman. I for one, do not want that type of person representing our city.
As for Bonnie, she is not required to be at council yet. Although it is a bit inappropriate, it's not required that she stay or even come to meetings. When the new city manager comes on and she becomes council president, then she will have to not only stay, but run the meeting. Now that will be something for Miss Hale to sink her teeth into.
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Tushay
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Point!
How many times did council remind the last mayor that the mayor is merely a ‘guest’ at ‘council’ meetings? As a proficient host in my own rights, I know that guests are entitled to attend my affairs at will and leave at will. Me, on the other hand, as host, must behave at all times.
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Leanna Hale
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As for my mentors, you ask, I'd be glad to share this info with anyone, but not to the point of offering names on the TS to be bashed. Fact is, I have invested a great deal of time and energy into this city based upon my belief in civic participation and doing my part to represent the community's best interests. It has not always been an easy position to hold, nor has it always been an easy vote to cast. I know this firsthand.
I haven't attended many council meetings lately because of the demanor that I find there. Much for the same reason (among other factors) it is that I chose not to run for a seat in the last election. In my experience the meetings simply deflate the positve energy that we need in this city now. I do not find the experience a positive one currently, actually it is quite frustrating to witness the unprofessional attitudes that so often surface there, just as they do here. Not to say that appplies to all council members or staff, etc. There are things that happen that are respectable and appreciated as well. But the negativity is enough to make me choose to avoid the experience of witnessing it. This does not mean that I am not up to speed on the events that occur. Quite the contrary. And when I have something to say, I will speak to it openly.
IF I chose to run for a seat in Nov, I trust the voters will assess any candiate's abilities and intentions for themselves and vote accordingly.
Someone said it so very well on another TS topic; I will be the change I want to see. I will not engage in the promotion of ongoing conflict and uneccessary power and control battles. I WILL work toward collaborative and cooperative efforts, and fight fair and hard for the causes I believe in - be they political, professional, personal or otherwise.
If you have questions for me, feel free to call anytime. I am happy to listen to anything anyone has to say and happy to respond with my own thoughts.
A couple favorite quotes to end with here; "You become the person you are based upon your own actions, not the actions of others".
As Popeye often said; "I am who I am" ----- and not who you may try to portray me to be!
Happy Easter everyone! 
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