| Archive for edgewatertalkingstick.myfreeforum.org The talking stick has been used in many cultures to promote discussion and community. It is our hope that citizens will join in and gain a greater sense of community involvement. Note: This is not a government sanctioned forum. |
| Guest |
Perhaps Harlander can spread some of his charter commissions 'infinite wisdom' to the other current thread where someone is complaining about money being spent on a manager search firm and not fireworks.
Just goes to show that you can please some of the people......... I do have to wonder was behind the wisdom in putting the mayor as city council president, especially considering who the mayor was during the charter revision process. I just hope that council can make it through the rest of the term without their new council president deciding to adjourn early because she wants to go home, or telling council and the peanut gallery that she doesn't want to talk about some things because she doesn't have to, or ordering the new city council to do what she wants because she speaks for council........ OOOH boy, this is going to be a long year. |
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| Guest |
So are you saying the charter should have been written for the situations of today and not the future? Who cares who the current mayor was when they wrote the thing? That wasn’t the point. | ||
| The Harlander |
Exactly! | ||
| Maybe? |
choose you vote well
Maybe it was to make sure the people seriously considered who they vote in as mayor. We still have a relatively powerful mayor. Who gets elected to do the job is the responsibility of the people, not the ex-charter commissioners. |
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| The Harlander |
Exactly! | ||
| Guest |
"So are you saying the charter should have been written for the situations of today and not the future?"
The new Charter was written to lead us into and through the future. Rules and laws have to be written to have substance and be written witout emotion or malice. Looking at personalities in general is not considered. Protection and guidance of The People has to be the prioirty. |
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| The Harlander |
Exactly!
We sure have a lot of people in Edgewater who "get it". I would be remiss if I did not point out out that we have a Charter Crisis going on right now because some people don't "get it". Of course since we do not yet have a CRCC the whole mess could (emphasis on could) wind up in District Court which is the very reason why the CRCC is in the Charter (to handle Charter issues in house as it were). But, what do I know? 
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| Guest |
Exactly! | ||
| Guest |
So what’s the crisis? 
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| Oh No |
I hope it all works out for the best but things are not so great now. We don't have a fire chief because no one wants to do it. The police facility is so far gone in a rented building it's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Police positions are being cut to save money. city traditions like fireworks are going bye,bye. I have an opinion about whats next but I'll save it. | ||
| Guest |
What's any of that got to with the charter? | ||
| Guest |
Police positions are not being cut. Pay attention to reality.
I'll give you that the station is in disarray, but I do think that if the chief thought it was dangerous, he would address that issue. I believe nobody wants to be chief because there is a paid position coming up, and that will definitely affect any current chief. We do have an assistant chief who is acting chief, and therefore we have a chief. City traditions are going 'bye-bye' for this year. They may come back next year if it can be done safely and financially. It's not the end of the world. Your opinions are probably better off 'saved'. Thank you very much. |
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| More level playing field |
Guest Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:45 amTo, Guest Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:45 amTraditionally in Edgewater, the powerful Mayor and the City Council often found themselves in power struggles. Now, they are members of the same body and The People elect their Council President, Council doesn't elect him or her from among their own ranks. Obviously, there is still plenty of room for disagreement but at least now everyone is playing by the same rules, everyone is expected to participate and everyone has to stay until the gavel falls. Maybe that's a start. |
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| Guest |
The CRCC, by charter, reports finding to council. Charter section 11.7(c) states “...the commission shall present its findings to the Council regarding complaints of Charter non-compliance. Therein the commission may provide suggestions for possible clarification or revision of the Charter to address ambiguities or inconsistencies that it has identified.” That’s about it. That’s all the CRCC can really do. Council has already asked the city attorney to give an opinion on a specific charter interpretation. Even if council weren’t already seeking advice from the attorney, let assume for sake of conversation, hypothetically speaking, the issue had to do with a popular member of council. The CRCC’s suggestion is not a mandate and could be disregarded by council. Harlander, I share your concern, but I don’t see where the CRCC would be of any assistance. How would the CRCC help? |
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| Guest |
You are assuming that it is a simple case of non compliance but what if it was found by the Commission to be a willful violation? Also, the Commissions hearings would be public, I am not so sure that the attorney process is so transparent. Going to the attorney is the same old same old, he will tell them what they want to hear, Charter be damned. Who's going to take them to court anyway? | ||
| Guest |
Great point about the attorney. Which truely begs the question "Who's going to take them to court?". I'd guess some citizen would have to make the first move. I doubt if any board or commission of the city could take the city to court. Seems like a conflict of some kind or another. As for willful that's a whole new can of worms. Does willful mean they knew there might be a conflict? Or does it mean they intened to violate the charter? |
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| JamieMac. |
That's BS!
I am really disappointed that this got posted. It is blatant bullshit. I have found this attorney to be more open and honest than any I have seen in the past. His job IS to advise council and the mayor, however, any ethical and competent attorney - as ours is - would not tell us something just because it was what we wanted to hear. He would not be doing us or his firm justice. Take it back....... 
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| Guest |
Why?Why should they, JamieMac? Maybe that is what they think. Maybe it is a legitimate question. We don't all have the privilege of personally knowing the City Attorney. |
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| lkeegan |
Perhaps if people came to council and saw how our attorney functions, they would not make such comments. Our attorney has no problem in letting council, mayor, city clerk, and department heads know if something is not legal. Or if yes, it is legal. And if he does not know on the spot, it is thoroughly researched, then council is advised. He is completely professional and an excellent attorney. Anyone who feels otherwise needs to be involved in the process, then you will see we are in the best of hands with him and his associates. Don't make judgements without the facts. | ||
| Guest |
It has nothing to do with whether or not the attorney is corrupt. Leave in all ethical and professional standards and consider a defense attorney. Even if the bad guy is guilty, and the attorney knows it, the attorney may still be in a position to successfully ‘defend’ the actions of his client. The judge interprets the law, the attorney defends actions. If council asks whether or not there is ‘a way’ to justify an action our attorney is somewhat obligated to try and find one. | ||
| Guest |
The informed opinionAbsolutely right, the informed opinion is the only one that should count. On the other hand, an attorney is an advocate, he is not impartial, his job is to do his client's bidding. As a citizen, I watch the process and I ask who's interest is the City, the Council, the City Attorney representing? That can be the difference. In the final analysis, we the people must hold our representatives accountable. That is our job. Without that, the whole thing falls apart and in that spirit, we have a right and a responsibility to ask these questions and expect answers. |
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| Ipso Reacto |
Charterian voodooLet's face it, the Charter was poorly written and poorly reviewed prior to the naïve voters just barely voting it in. The only reason this passed was because some people thought the change to city manager made sense. Not because most people actually read and thought about and maybe even tested the rest of the provisions.The petty bureaucrats running the charter commission were more interested in their own personal power wielding and showing off than in producing an excellent enduring document. This charter will need revision upon revision because of the egos of a few delusional misguided bullies. As to the current version of the charter, which is full of holes and contradictions, it appears Council must interpret this mess as best can be done. Council needs to read what’s on the page and live with it. I, for one, do not want to see council or any other pontificators adding stuff to the charter that the numbskull drafters forgot to put in or maybe wanted in but never quite got around to confirming the exact language to accomplish the intent. The voters passed the charter, they did not pass a measure that allows council or others to come along after the fact and re-write it to say what they think it should say instead. The charter stands as written, not as one or two sorry former members of the committee now think it should have been written. You want different results, draft an amendment and get it on the ballot. I think there will be huge public support for fixing the shoddy work that is already biting the city. |
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| Farmer Scott |
Just checking.Frankly, I think this discussion is getting a little looney. Thanks, for sugar coating there, Jamie. I agree with Lkeegan. I feel we are very fortunate to have our current lawyer. In fact, he may just have the most integrity in the room.As far as comparing a defense attorney to a city attorney? I think that's an apple and one large orange. As for the question: No one is going to court anytime soon. The Charter passed the end of June 2008. I cannot find an application for the CRCC on our new website. I also find it a little puzzling that I can only find 6 (VI) Articles of the new Charter However, there is drop in dogde-ball. I would have thought that the elected officals and our governing document would have received top billing. Love this town, The Farmer, 
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| Guest |
This is why our boards and commissions have so many vacancies. Who the hell want to ‘serve’ a city that touts shit like this. | ||
| Guest |
One question. Where were you when the document was being written? As for the "egos of a few delusional misguided bullies". As someone who volunteered for that project, your comment just makes me sad. It makes me wonder why I bothered at all. |
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| Guest |
Let it go. As a first class portentous bully himself Ipso Reacto (like we don’t know who that is) it’s quite predictable that he would dis the people of this community like that. If he decides to run for mayor we all know what to do. |
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| JamieMac. |
My opinion may not be yoursTo all the posters, even though I am responding to several bits and pieces.Not sure how I came to know the city attorney 'personally', but I do know his professional demeanor and his ethics as far as what he has shown us since he came on board. I believe that anyone sitting in the council room has also seen it. My opinion of him stands and I will support him until he gives me reason to do otherwise. If you choose to be angry about what may or may not happen with a particular charter issue, that is your privilege, as it is anyones. And you also have the privelege to blast anyone you want to, no matter if it comes from fact or paranoid projecting. Ipso Reacto also has that privelege. His or her ideas are just as valuable to him as yours are to you. These forums are for everyones opinion, including mine. Being on council certainly doesn't prevent me from having an opinion. What I choose to do with it is what should concern anyone. And anyone who really knows me knows that I am inclined to change my opinion if I have heard or seen something different that makes sense to me. I try to take into account the facts and the publics opinions both. I may agree with what you are saying at one time and hear something later that makes even more sense. That, in my opinion, is not wishy washy. It is listening and trying to learn all that I can before coming to a final opinion. I apologize if my final opinion does not reflect each and every one of yours, but then, we all know that that is not possible in any scenario. |
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| watch |
City Attorney okSo far the city attorney seems to be well informed and tries to give honest answers or even say he doesn't know the answer sometimes. From what I have seen the city seems to be getting pretty good service. What is the complaint about the quality or integrity with this one? |
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| The Harlander |
Ipso Facto wrote
A bureaucrat is an administrative official, the Charter Commissioners were in fact elected officials. As such they each probably had an agenda but that was filtered down by their peers and ultimately the electorate. The current Charter issue regarding Council eligibility is precisely why the CRCC was created. However, we do not know yet whether the Commission will have investigative powers or only quasi-judicial powers. That is yet to be determined by ordinance. Though their decision will be passed along to Council, Manager and or the Attorney, it in all likelihood should carry some weight not unlike the P&Z Board or Board of Adjustments. Unless the Commissions findings are extremely flawed it is unlikely that a higher court will overturn them, at least that has been the case with several Ethics Commissions throughout the State. |
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| lkeegan |
The city clerk has said anyone who would like to have a copy of the charter emailed to them can contact her. That way , until the city site is completed, you will have access to the document on your own computer or you can print it out. Thank you, Beth!
cityclerk@edgewaterco.com |
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| webster |
How much charter is on lineI was able to access the charter - at least it looks like it. Is part of the charter missing from the website? Does it end at section 6? Is the whole charter on the old web-site? Why is the site so screwed up anyway? |
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| perplexed |
Question for HarlanderI am wondering about another part of the charter:"In order to broaden the opportunities for public service, no individual shall serve more than four (4) consecutive terms in the office of Mayor, whether that limit is reached by election to two-year terms, by appointment to fill vacancies, or by a combination thereof." Is this right? The mayor can be in office for eight years running? That seems like a really long time. How does this "broaden the opportunities for public service?" Were some people suggesting that longer than eight years made sense? It would be very cool if we found a city manager who would last even half that long. |
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| Guest |
Only part of the Charter is on the city site at this time. | ||
| Guest |
Council and mayor both are limited to 8 years. The idea for mayor is that if they are bad they get voted out after only 2 years. If they are really good we get to keep them for up 8 years. All council member are voted in for 4 years at a time, but can stay for as many as 8. | ||
| Guest |
Re: Question for Harlander
Before a good mayor could only serve for two terms, which was four years. |
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| Guest |
Some earlier poster complained about the new charter. I studied it before I voted and I think they did a great job. I don't think we have to have a setting City Manager to emplement much of it though. Council needs to write that ordinance to get the Parks Board back up and running. I am suprised that the Charter Commission is not yet done. | ||
| Guest |
The city clerk has said anyone who would like to have a copy of the charter emailed to them can contact her. That way , until the city site is completed, you will have access to the document on your own computer or you can print it out. Thank you, Beth!
cityclerk@edgewaterco.com |
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| They're Done |
A charter commission, by law, is only allowed to convene for something like 120 days. They were done well before the elections in June. | ||
| I told you so |
Does the word Dilitant ring anyones bell | ||
| Guest |
Nope, no bells here. |
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| The Harlander |
I guessing the 1/21 6:00 PM guest was referring to the Charter Review and Compliance Commission.
Dilitant???? That's a new one on me. Haven't been able to find that word on the Internet either. Is it a secret password or something? Did you mean diligent? |
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| Guest |
Harlander, I too was stumped and did find this similiar word. Maybe our poster meant this!!!:
Main Entry: dilettante Function: noun Text: 1 a person having a knowledgeable and fine appreciation of the arts <she writes about art not from the point of view of an artist but from that of a committed dilettante > -- see CONNOISSEUR 2 a person who regularly or occasionally engages in an activity without being or becoming an expert at it <a dilettante at heart, she was never willing to commit the time and effort that ballet demands> -- see AMATEUR OR Main Entry: dilettante Function: adjective Text: lacking or showing a lack of expert skill <many dilettante efforts to be seen at the sidewalk art show> -- see AMATEURISH |
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| Guest |
Wonderful research! Great job!
That word sure fits our entire governmental system. |
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| The Harlander |
Yeah, that does make sense as in:
"They made a dilettante effort to follow the City Charter." Of course a dilettante effort could not be construed to mean a willful violation. It's all so very confusing. |
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